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gatsby Member Posts: 2,532
August 2022 in General Discussions
I tried running Open Handed with some Adas that were running Wire Tap and I didn't notice the extra effects at all.
Wire Tap should be increasing the Aura reading range to 30 meters, but it definitely wasn't doing that
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AnchorTea Member Posts: 1,015
August 2022
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Open Handed + Wire would be the new meta. That's why it doesnt work
Ecstasy Member Posts: 426
August 2022
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Thank god
OrangeBear Member Posts: 2,368
August 2022
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Wiretap never worked with Better Together either. I think some things are just simply intended not to work with wire tap for balance reasons. I think wiretap on midwich with open handed would be kinda crazy. Essentially permanent wall hacks on the killer for all survivors with 2/16 perk slots.
SekiSeki Member Posts: 516
August 2022
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That's a bummer, really was looking forward to it. It's not busted because the killer can always kick the gen.
K139K05 Member Posts: 217
August 2022
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The same is true for Dark Sense. BHVR uses special wording so we know if it works (it's hard to explains in words, compare Kindred with Wire Tap and you'll know what I mean).
dugman Member Posts: 9,714
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3158933#Comment_3158933
That should be included in the perk description if that’s the case.
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Mandy Administrator, Dev, Community Manager Dev∙Community Manager › Posts: 22,447
August 2022
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Wiretap and Open Handed are not meant to work together.
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SekiSeki Member Posts: 516
August 2022
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Sadge
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TheWheelOfCheese Member Posts: 657
August 2022 edited August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3158972#Comment_3158972
This makes sense. I wonder, though, if the perk descriptions can explicitly indicate this, because when reading the descriptions there's nothing to indicate that they shouldn't work together, which makes this look like an unintended bug.
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HolyElixir Member Posts: 20
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3158972#Comment_3158972
can we add a "doesnt work with aura extending effects" or something if it doesn't have it already?
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HugTheHag Member Posts: 3,138
August 2022 edited August 2022
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Guess Open Handed doesn't increase all aura reading abilities range after all.
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dugman Member Posts: 9,714
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3158972#Comment_3158972
Thanks Mandy. In that case the perk description for Wiretap should probably explicitly say it doesn't work with Open-Handed then or vice versa. Right now there's no indication in game that they don't work together. Otherwise it's really confusing when they don't.
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scenekiller Member Posts: 890
August 2022 edited August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3158972#Comment_3158972
Can I ask why? I understand it could be a complicated combination, but the devs are typically interested in consistency across the board for perks, and this is inconsistent, as it is an aura reading perk like all the others.
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Mandy Administrator, Dev, Community Manager Dev∙Community Manager › Posts: 22,447
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3159041#Comment_3159041
I don't have exact reasons as to why I'm afraid.
This is definitely something I'm taking some feedback on though.
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sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 6,544
August 2022
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Honestly I’m fine with it not working. 30 meters would’ve been a lot with no indication to the killer.
I’m fine with kindred + open-handed because it punishes camping. This doesn’t.
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gatsby Member Posts: 2,532
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3159046#Comment_3159046
Not all Aura perks have to work with Open Handed. But it would be helpful if there was a clear and consistent way to tell if they work from reading the perk description.
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Ilovezarina5 Member Posts: 149
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3158972#Comment_3158972
But kindred and open handed do? Lazy balance right there
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HP150 Member Posts: 455
August 2022 edited August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3158972#Comment_3158972
Really wish there was some kind of indication of this before I spent a solid hour pumping 2.8 mil BP into Ada (seriously need take away the bloodweb animations and let us purchase with one simple click to speed it up).
I was excited to finally have another viable perk to pair with Open Hand, along with Kindred (there are very, very few meta Aura reading perks for Survivor and I don't feel like I'm getting much bang-for-my-buck only taking one Aura perk with OH).
By the logic of the game and the text of the perks they very much should work together, yet they arbitrarily don't with no in-game clarification of this.
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GolbezGarlandGabrant Member Posts: 827
August 2022
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I think Wiretap is like an Undying for Gens from the way the description reads.
It'd be nice if there were more information perks that worked with Open Handed.
Carth Member Posts: 1,177
August 2022
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Because spawning 30 meter * 3 wall hacks covering anywhere from 50-90% of the map on the first chase would be insane. It takes 3 seconds of working on a gen to install. It should def be called out on the perk itself though
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dictep Member Posts: 1,333
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3159132#Comment_3159132
Agreed. Perks shouldn’t work together, surv perks, of course. 4 regression perks are totally fine
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VideoGameMage Member Posts: 358
August 2022
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It didn't work on PTB so I assumed it wouldn't work live. They really should update perk descriptions so people aren't confused about this.
TheycallmeLix Member Posts: 334
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3158972#Comment_3158972
Why not? Would it be to OP otherwise?
Killers can equip Starstruck with Agitation but us survivors can’t equip Wire Tap with Open Handed.
What’s the point equipping the perk then if it doesn’t work together?!
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Dustin Member Posts: 2,247
August 2022
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To me I didn't expect it to work.
Open-handed - Increases aura reading range a survivor has
Wiretap - Gives a GENERATOR an aura reading range
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TheWheelOfCheese Member Posts: 657
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3159195#Comment_3159195
Starstruck + Agitation has pretty obvious counterplay once survivors are aware of it: don't group up. If you are accidentally grouped up and someone goes down, run away immediately instead of going for flashy saves.
If survivors are running Wiretap + OH, how would you suggest the killer counterplay this? The killer cannot see the aura of affected gens like survivors do. Even if the killer knows the survivors have this combo, they have to guess which gen has it, and there will probably be more than one survivor bringing it.
You're comparing a situational perk combo (only works when a survivor goes down near another and the other survivors aren't smart enough to leave) with basically free map-wide wall hacks (30m is a huge distance for aura reading) that can't be effectively shut down. In the time it takes the killer to go to one gen and kick away the wiretap, a survivor can be putting it somewhere else.
14m is fine; 30m would be insane.
I'd be open to the idea of OH working with Wiretap if the killer gets some kind of information that it's active, like a periodic beeping noise coming from affected gens.
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blue4zion Member Posts: 2,773
August 2022 edited August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3158972#Comment_3158972
So remove Open handed if it wont work with Aura perks like its supposed to
its not like the killer can just, i dunno, kick the gen if they suspect it.
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HugTheHag Member Posts: 3,138
August 2022 edited August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3159228#Comment_3159228
Isn't the wiretap destroyed if the gen is kicked ?
(I know the killer doesn't see auras of gens affected, but Wiretap is countered by pretty basic killer gameplay.)
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Slowpeach Member Posts: 689
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3159198#Comment_3159198
This. I was about to say the same thing. The effect is on the generator not the survivor so it doesn't work.
Having said that there are very few perks aside Kindred that work with open handed that are useful with it. The others are either bad even with Open handed or the range is so good you don't need it anyway. Considering the importance of auras in solo, more could be done with this IMO.
Ryuhi Member Posts: 3,728
August 2022 edited August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3159046#Comment_3159046
This approach of stopping synergies instead of razing perks to the ground is good, can some of the more recently nerfed perks like AA and Thana possibly get a similar pass as well? Maybe overcharge?
I was honestly pleasantly surprised by it, would have expected the radius to be made so low that open handed would be required to make it usable.
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Carth Member Posts: 1,177
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3159153#Comment_3159153
When did I ever say that? I have zero problems with a cap being put onto regression perks if it comes with changes to the perks themselves to support such a thing(Overcharge on its own without anything else would be absolutely garbage, not all regression perks are equal and how do you balance active regression(pop, jolt, pain res) with kick based regression?). Insane perk combos should be toned down on both sides if they are too strong.
SunsetSherbet Member Posts: 1,607
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3158972#Comment_3158972
Then the perk descriptions require changing as they do work together as perk descriptions. Survivors shouldn't have their match ruined because they loaded into a match with improperly described perks. It's one of the least fair aspects of this game. The devs do stealth sort of nerfs and then players get screwed over when they enter a match and discover it. I don't think the two perks NEED to work together, but one of their descriptions needs to be updated to specifically mention they do not work. Because as is, there is no reason they should not work per description. Balance is a valid reason for them not to work. Not a valid reason for incorrect descriptions.
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Ryuhi Member Posts: 3,728
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3159412#Comment_3159412
Kinda feel like thats a bit of an overreaction, even if I do agree that there should be some type of notification that the synergy won't work.
Would you prefer they did the usual and nuke the perk to require the combo to get any value out of it though? I'd rather compliment them on addressing the extreme while not hurting the core value of either perk in the process.
Sadako_Best_Girl Member Posts: 658
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3158972#Comment_3158972
Society.
dugman Member Posts: 9,714
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3159198#Comment_3159198
The description of Open-Handed doesn’t specify the center point of the aura has to be a survivor.
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TheWheelOfCheese Member Posts: 657
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3159300#Comment_3159300
Even with the recent buffs to kicking, it's rarely worth it unless you are bringing strong perks that proc on a kick (pop, oppression, etc.). The bigger problem is the killer having no indication that it's even active.
lauraa Member Posts: 3,195
August 2022
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Open Handed finally sees a use outside of Bond, Kindred and Windows and it's too OP so an exception was made.
Sigh...
Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 6,866
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3159074#Comment_3159074
its inconsistent. it says for open handed that it increases all aura reading by 16 meters. killer aura and survivor aura perks. it should work wiretap. kindred is aura perk for survivor and killer aura's and wiretap is aura perk for killer aura.
I never heard of any killer player complain that open handed is too strong.... or wiretap for that matter.
sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 6,544
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3159956#Comment_3159956
The problem with 30 meters of wiretap is that the killer has no way to know it’s active, thus preventing them from mindgaming. 14 meters is close enough to the generator that the killer can disable it by kicking the gen (although that’s not necessarily always a good idea), but 30m isn’t.
With open-handed + kindred, the killer at least knows when it has a possibility to exist, and when it can’t be doing anything. They know if someone is on the hook and where the hook is, and that’s what makes it more fair imo. Wiretap doesn’t do that at all, and can also go on for up to 80 seconds. Barring perks that can temporarily freeze Entity progression, a survivor on the hook that long has already died or gone into stage 2 which isn’t ideal for the survivors anyway.
That said, it should be made more clear in-game that these perks do not work together, because it is admittedly pretty unclear right now.
Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 6,866
August 2022 edited August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3159977#Comment_3159977
I mean your not suppose to know survivor perks.... I mean i say this when survivor can see dissolution icon for killer perks and Trail of torment gives an aura reading on generator.
If you think its that huge of an issue, you could make it so that killer see highlighted blue aura on the gen, but that defeats purpose of the perk. if the survivor is not falling for any mindgames, you can deduce that it might be wiretap and you can kick the gen to get rid of it.
killer don't have any indication for kindred aura reading and i don't see anyone complaining to get kindred killer aura reading weakened.
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Sumnox Member Posts: 605
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3158972#Comment_3158972
Yeah, god forbid you can have any fun with survivor perks! Unthinkable!
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sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 6,544
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3159997#Comment_3159997
If it showed the killer the gen aura it’d be kinda bad on its own. Then you’d almost need open-handed for it to get much value.
But tbh, that’s why open-handed is kinda difficult to balance, and I’m actually kinda glad that they specifically prevented this combo rather than just nerfing open-handed because it’s not OP with any other aura reading perk, but this combo would’ve been. And yeah the killer isn’t told about kindred but it’s more limited in when it CAN be active, and the killer does know exactly when that is. Plus, it punishes camping/staying near the hook so I don’t really have a problem with it.
And like you said, you can kick the gen to remove the wiretap. Just not when the gen is 30 meters away and you’d be almost certainly dropping the chase to do it.
ad19970 Member Posts: 6,306
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3159041#Comment_3159041
I think it's because if multiple survivors run that combo, you practically have map wide wall hacks on killers, something that has been proven to be pretty op with object of Obession. I think it's better this way. Maybe they can even buff the base range a bit in the future.
Ryuhi Member Posts: 3,728
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3159977#Comment_3159977
They also don't really know how to handle veritcality in radii effects, as well as compensating for inhabitable map area. multifloor maps essentially double effective ranges when considering how much of the active area of a map they can cover, while also having to deal with pathing and travel time concerns as well. Honestly all radius based effects need to have this addressed in some way, for both killer and survivor. Its just as much an issue with starstruck nurse as it is with CoH, yet it still gets overlooked in situations like this. It doesn't even necessarily mean that their range shouldn't be able to traverse floors *at all*, just that it can't be a massive bubble in all directions evenly based on its origin point.
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Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 6,866
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3160115#Comment_3160115
But tbh, that’s why open-handed is kinda difficult to balance, and I’m actually kinda glad that they specifically prevented this combo rather than just nerfing open-handed
why? Isn't open handed a useless perk though? the only real practical use for open handed is iri key+blood amber and kindred. i do see kindred used as a perk but i never see open handed. I am always paranoid chasing survivors around the hook because of kindred.
i don't think open handed has particular high play-rate in my experience like i don't see perk get used post-match as killer so I don't see any problem with it. i don't think its particular good perk. personally as survivor, i find it as a wasted perk slot and it appears that other survivors agree with that sentiment. Wiretap in general will likely be underwhelming perk as it is with all of Ada's perks.
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CyberRoninX Member Posts: 293
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3158972#Comment_3158972
Why are they not meant to work together? It seems like they should.
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Black_Knight Member Posts: 5
August 2022
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https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/3158967#Comment_3158967
I just checked, I think the determinant is whether the description of something says "range" or not.
I will name some perks and items that had "Range" in their description, but I want to clarify that I have not tested any of this, I merely assumed because Ik Open Handed affects Bond, Windows Of Opportunity and Kindred. If anyone can confirm what I listed down, that'd be really great.
Bond, Windows Of Opportunity, Kindred, Plunderer's Instinct, Empathy, Left Behind, Empathic Connection, Clairvoyance, Maps, Keys, Knock Out (Bubba's perk), however, although NOED's description says "Range" as well, the WiKi (https://deadbydaylight.fandom.com/wiki/Open-Handed) says it won't be affected. I personally think a small icon on perks/items affected by Open Handed would be nice to remove the confusion.
